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Nature's Mother

Should we be protecting against childhood illnesses?

After doing much of our own research (both pro and anti vaccine) and being lectured by doctors and told we're being irresponsible and selfish, we have made the decision not to have Erin immunised.  Not yet anyway, not until I know for certain that I'm not doing more damage then good.  I instinctively knew that I should not get the DPT done when Erin was 8 weeks old (do you know they give you the same quantity whether you're 8 wks or 7 yrs old???).  It is a huge responsibility and I often struggle with it and am sometimes nearly scare mongered into getting them done.

Anyway...just some food for thought.  Here's a great website about the vaccination debate http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/

What do you think?
JulieD

Quite a difficult one this, and there are definately 2 sides to this debate.  As far as I know I was vaccinated as a child, yet I'm not immune to Ruebella, which causes great concern during pregnancies.  My husband also had all his immunisations as a child, yet 2 years ago he caught mumps from our eldest son(who had had his MMR's).  My husband was in hospital for 2 weeks and suffered every complication under the sun that mumps could possibly cause - meningitis, enciphilitis, pancreatitis...the list goes on.  We were told he'd probably be sterile because of it.  ( thankfully that wasn't the case though!).
I have immunisated my eldest for everything, but stopped at the 6 week one with my baby.  I have discovered that there is a link between type 1 diabetes and certain immunisations.  I'm type 1 diabetic, so am still working through whether or not to continue the vaccinations on my baby or not... Confused
Nature's Mother

It is difficult and a huge responsiblity, but I think it's great that people are asking questions and realising long-term effects rather then just accepting them without question.  Also very debate provoking  Smile

If your child has a healthy diet and lifestyle it is unlikely that measles is going to have any scary effect. Measles has devastating effects in areas of poverty & malnutrition (like deep, dark Africa). It is also true that children (and adults) who have had the MMR still get measles...therefore how effective is it?

Also with the risk that the MMR may lead to Autism (amongst MANY other long term health problems), surely we're taking too much of a risk by giving the vaccination to our healthy kids? Perhaps it is different if you have a child who is not very well and you simply can't risk them getting these illnesses(but as we've established, even this is not guaranteed).  I know the autism link has been "rubbished" but there still seems to be very many (educated) people who believe there is a link, specifically those who's children developed autism within days or weeks of the MMR, some who were learning to talk just stopped.  There are many professionals (including Doctors) who haven't given it to their own children.  

Why not have these illnesses as a child and have long immunity rather then catching it as an adult (perhaps when your MMR has worn off) and it being really really serious? (Like what happened to your husband Julie)

I have a great book called Immunity Foods for Healthy Kids by Lucy Burney...It says that when a child get measles it is important to feed them food that is high in Vitamin A (or even get vitamin A supplement)..I will post a couple of recipes/food suggestions asap (any orange coloured veg/fruit is high in beta-carotene which is the plant form of Vitamin A)

I am also not immune to rubella, but am not too worried about it.  What doctors don't tell you is that a very very tiny proportion of pregnant women who get rubella during pregnancy actually have any problems or birth defects.  There was a study (can't find where I read it now, I will hunt it down) where 23 women who contracted rubella during the first trimester pregnancy...NONE of them aborted or had babies with birth defects.  Also Rubella is very rare these days.  So is it all scare-mongering, or blown out of proportion, or are these illnesses dying a natural death?  

I will give Erin the choice when she reaches puberty if she wants to have the Rubella vacc.  And she's welcome to have any other vaccinations when she's old enough to make an educated choice, but for now I feel I am keeping her safer by not having them.

I have a great book called "The Vaccination Bible" by Lynne McTaggart.  She also wrote "What Doctors Don't Tell You" which I haven't read.  Vacc Bible is definitely a good read although it is ten years old now, I'm sure there must be a more up to date version. There are many if you search on Amazon or similar sites!

Even those first vaccinations are linked to things like asthma, eczema, immunity problems, etc.  You've also got to wonder why there's so much cancers and other diseases around too...although I'm sure they're a combination of all the other crap we put into and onto our bodies.  The long term safety of vaccines have just not been researched, and the research on vaccine damaged children is flawed.  Why? So the pharmaceutical companies can make their money? who knows...
mes1971

vaccination sites

We chose not to vaccinate our daughter, and she is by far a very healthy girl compared to some of her mates in nursery who are constantly ill.  

I think there is one question that you have to answer for yourself scientifically:
do germs cause disease? or is disease caused by overgrowth of virus and bacteria already present within a person who has poor immune function?

Most disease that we still are harassed to immunise against were actually well on their way out due to better sanitation and nutrition, ALL medical history books will show those graphs (McKeown charts).

Check out Dr Jayne Donegan's website, great information there from a GP and pediatrician, who knows her stuff.

http://www.jayne-donegan.co.uk/

The most important thing you can do is educate yourself, and not make decisions based on fear.

M
Nature's Mother

Hi Mes1971 (or anyone else)

I was hoping you could help me make something of this I found on the internet http://www.apologia.com/vaccines/vac_lies.html  

Basically it says that the anti-vaccination movement has told a lot of lies...obvioulsy having chosen to not vaccinate, stumbling upon things like this make me a teeny bit nervous.  Any idea what we should make of this? (i'm not tempted to run off and get my daughter vaccinated, however, as I also feel that she has a very healthy immune system)

Ta xxx

PS How does everyone feel about the Swine Flu vaccs being developed? Would you get one?
mes1971

the list

The list is very interesting and must have been written by a pharma person.  It does touch on all the key points that people who choose not to vaccinate choose to highlight as scientific non emotional issues. Obviously it differs from country to country, but there is a huge financial kick back in having a practice of over 90% immunised. Sick but true.  The argument against the sanitation and nutritional improvements is nonsense, as it is pure medical history and it is written up in most medical history volumes.  Vaccines are not adequately tested for many reasons, neither are most pharmaceutical drugs, but that has never stopped them making it on to market. Look at Gardasil and cervarix, which in the first 6 months (after only a few years testing ON MEN, killed 25 women and paralysed 3, and countless other neurological injuries.   The issue goes beyond the vaccine itself, and into the ingredients in the vaccines such as aborted fetal material (which if Catholics were aware of would not vaccinate their kids), aluminium, formaldehyde, penecillins, egg, mercury (thimersol), the list of nasties is endless, and no batch is the same. Each batch has a different list of side effects.  The state of a childs immune system also plays a huge role.  How many people do you know have the flu vaccine and are deathly ill for weeks afterwards?
The main problem is that it tries to standardise a population, and we are all individuals.
It is of vital importance that the reference materials for vaccine information are sourced from reliable and good solid scientific sources.  The NVIC in the states is one of the largest (natiional vaccine information centre), vaccination.co.uk, Dr Tim OShea website, and Dr Jayne Donegan websites.
Fear is a terrible thing.
Swine flu vaccine is no different, lets scare the life out of people and force them to get vaccinated with a vaccine to be test marketed on kids and pregnant women. HOLY HELL.  At least on radio 2 there was one GP standing up against this based on ethics of using children and unborn children as guinea pigs (anyone remember thalidomide?)
At the end of the day, it is a parent's decision. But educate yourselves, dont blindly follow the money trail.
M
Anne Thomas

In answer to your question, no I wouldn't have the swine flu vaccine.  And neither would I have any vaccine.  I don't have any children but I know I wouldn't have vaccinated them.

Has anyone tried using homeopathy for the alternatives to vaccination.  Perhaps Helen can shed some more light on that.

Anne
michellejaneholmes

Natural Immunity

Hi there,

We didn't vaccinate Tate and we won't be vaccinating number two either.  We used homeopathic nosodes instead.

Personally I will never take another vaccine and I know my husband won't either.

We did a lot of research into this during my first pregnancy and after looking into vaccination in detail we realised that it is more geared towards making money for the Pharmaceutical companies than it is towards protecting us and our children!

Is it 24 vaccinations before the age of 2 now?  WOW!  Personally I feel this is an assault on an immature immune system.   I remember my independent midwife telling me during my first pregnancy that the age for beginning vaccination used to be much older but because mothers had gained so much confidence in their child's resilience by then and were turning down vaccines, they brought the age right down to when women were feeling more vulnerable about their babies health.  I was shocked and appalled!

The Vaccine Awareness Network is a great source of information on vaccinations and their dangers.  I couldn't believe some of the things that are contained in vaccines and injected directly into the bloodstream thereby bypassing the bodies natural defence system altogether.

I have read many interesting articles about how the only soliders who died of tetanus in the 2nd world war were the ones who were vaccinated against it, the only people in Philippines who died of smallpox were the vaccinated, the only ones to get it twice were the vaccinated and that the only modern cases of polio were directly caused by the polio vaccination but it is entirely up to each of us to do our research and intuitively feel whatever we believe to be right for ourselves and our children.

Tate is 27 months old now and I am still breastfeeding.  I am also 6 weeks pregnant.  I plan to continue breastfeeding until Tate is ready to stop.  I get a lot of mixed opinions on this but I always say each mothers knows what is best for their child.  Anyway, I believe that the worldwide average for stopping breastfeeding is age 4 so Tate has a way to go yet (that is if he doesn't self wean during pregnancy when the colostrum comes in as some children do)!  :0)  

If anyone wants more information on the health (and emotional) benefits of full term breastfeeding please visit The Mother Magazine online where you will find lots of information from the wonderful Veronika Robinson.  Veronika believes that breastfeeding will be imperative for humanities continued survival and she is a wonderful source of information, let alone being a beautiful human being too!

If anyone is unsure what to do about vaccination I would just advise them as a mother and as a fellow human being, to research all the for and against arguments as much as possible and to hold off from making a decision until they are sure in their heart what they should do.

With love

Michelle :0)
Nature's Mother

Hi everyone!

I know it sounds terrible but I have just not been able to afford visits to Homeopaths & lots of homeopathic medicine...do you think they're a must, Michelle?  I feel Erin's immune system is really strong, so I don't really feel concerned.

Isn't it also amazing that when the vaccination age in Japan was raised to 2 years old, cot deaths decreased significantly.  

I have to tell you about a conversation with our GP a few months ago...  

We finally got around to registering with a GP as Erin seemed to be walking a bit funny and we wanted to get it checked out.  They wouldn't give us an appointment for her leg unless we called between 8.30 and 9.00 on the morning, but the minute they found out she hadn't been vaccinated they scheduled us an appointment to see the GP about her vaccinations.  Amazing!!  I agreed in the moment & then chatted to Steven who called them back to say that actually we would see the Doctor about Erin's leg but not about Vaccinations as we didn't want to get into a discussion about them.  We obviously polished up on our research beforehand, just in case it came up.  GP saw Erin, said her leg was nothing to worry about as she'd just started walking and was still finding her feet. Good news!  Then he brought up vaccinations and said it "could really come between us" (his words!) if we didn't get her vaccinated!  We said that we'd rather not discuss it, but he went into a rant about anti-vacc people scaremongering & talking bullsh*t, and then proceeded to tell us how dangerous the childhood diseases are, which I found quite hilarious when just speaking about scaremongering!!  Of course the MMR is the big one at the moment, and the "herd immunity"(& I dare say financial incentives) at their surgery is quite high, so he was very into telling us how terrible a disease measles is and how many people still die from it.  I pointed out that the overwhelming majority of these people are (sadly) malnourished, uneducated, don't have good sanitation or medical care, etc.  His answer was "well that reduces Erin's odds, but still YOU are putting her at risk".  He also spoke about how HIS money as a tax payer goes towards vaccinations for a reason...we pointed out that we too were tax payers! He also muttered about us being selfish & irresponsible. (i'm shaking just thinking about all of this!)  We also mentioned that the long term effects of vaccs had not been tested, which he rubbished.  Steven brought up Thilidomide and how that wasn't tested properly and how we just don't trust that vaccs have been extensively tested and we'd just rather not have them as a result.  We mentioned that Erin seems very healthy compared to some of her vaccinated peers and we do too feel that vaccs are such an attack on teeny immune systems, it's insane!!  When I mentioned the cot death rate in Japan going down after the vaccination age had gone up, he tried to escape by saying that many other factors that caused cot deaths, which I'm sure they do but I thought that was besides the point.  We ended up saying thank you and walking out while he was still trying to scare us into getting Erin shoving needles full of all sorts of cr*p into Erin's precious body.

I guess he's just doing he's job, and I guess he just believes in vaccinations as much as we don't, but I found him really patronising and horrible, I hope to avoid him as much as possible.  Sorry about that...rant over!! Laughing

And I do agree that everyone should definitely do their own research and decide what is right for them and not be scaremongered into it either way!  

The Jayne Donegan website suggested by mes1971 earlier in this thread is very good http://www.jayne-donegan.co.uk/

Does anyone know if their is any polio or any other diseases in Spain (we're going on a sunny spanish holiday soon) and if there are any reasonably inexpensive natural ways of keeping away diseases that may be rife in other countries?  I guess a healthy immune system is number one!

many thanks & much love
sharon x

PS looking forward to hearing more about your breastfeeding Michelle! xxx Very Happy
mes1971

polio etc

The historical basis of polio is not viral, it is pesticide use.  Dr TIm OShea has written quite a lot about this. Once they banned the use of a certain pesticide (which had entered the river system and water table, which is why it was that water spread it) polio virtually disappeared.  It causes severe swelling of the brain stem, which is why they now call it something else if the child has been vaccinated!!!  I think its like 98% of the cases of polio over the last 20 years are due to the vaccine. Scary stuff.  
As for cot death, Dr Viera Schriebner (inventor of the baby monitor, and ex vaccine creator/researcher) found that the DPT (esp the pertussis portion) had a very high correlation with cot death, and she could track it in days.
And, needless to say, with all the court cases going on in the USA re autism and MMR.........the THEORY of vaccinations is interesting and perhaps good, but it DOESNT WORK in practice, you just have to look at the medical history and the evolution of tertiary (chronic) diseases that have developed since (that never existed before vaccination). And what about the rise in learning dysfunctions and violence?

I had the same experience as you did when I arrived at the GP for a baby check up, refused the vaccinations etc and boy did she go in for the scaremongering. Thank goodness for having done my research, I could only think that I felt so sorry for other mums trying to do the right thing then being browbeaten and emotionally used like that.  I was pretty angry when I left, especially after I explained my level of education and the fact that I could actually read a research paper, she changed tack totally and talked to me like a colleague rather than a scared mum, which infuriated me further!!!
At the end of the day, if you arent sure, dont do it and dont be browbeaten into it, do your own learning and research and choose what you feel is right for your child based on information NOT FEAR.

FEAR is just FALSE EVIDENCE APPEARING REAL!

M
Nature's Mother

Wow, that is so interesting about Polio!! Why don't things like that make the headlines I wonder?!

What do you know about Tetanus?  I have read the chapter about it in "The Vaccination Bible" which basically says that if you clean a wound out properly you won't get tetanus.  But it is the one I have almost been scaremongered into having as tetanus is apparantly rife in cornwall and we spend a lot of time on a friends farm, and a friend of a friend has it and suffers terribly as a result.  GP's don't offer tetanus on it's own, unless it's a booster after you've had an injury, which apparantly doesn't work until a few weeks later, so what's the point of that anyway? I'm not too worried about it anymore but I went through a stage of checking Erin for puncture wounds everytime we left the farm...  Rolling Eyes
michellejaneholmes

It's lovely to be able to talk to others about these things!  I've not really come across many others families who don't vaccinate so it's a real blessing.  Thank you!

Aside from this my other favourite thing for when I feel all alone is reading The Mother Magazine.  Love it!

No I don't feel nosodes are important at all - I only had them because being a first time mum and feeling rather insecure about the whole thing (and having had a barrage of accusations of being "selfish, thoughtless" etc) I felt I wanted to "do something" although of course breastfeeding and giving Tate mostly living organic raw fruit and vegetables is something I feel has been fantastic.

If you are worried about going on holidays the Vaccine Awareness Network (Joanna) is wonderful to contact!  She once got me through one of the hardest periods of NHS bullying I went through with Tate just by sending me a few emails.  She would recommend lots of vitamin C and buying only bottled water and boiling it before drinking anyway I think.  Can't remember fully but do contact her.  She's wonderful!

There's a protest against mandatory vaccinations in London in October that she is organising by the way.  I don't know if anyone has heard of Jane Burgermeister, the journalist who has filed criminal charges against the WHO, the UN etc for the manufacturing of Swine Flu and also for having the intent to commit mass murder through the mandatory vaccines!  It's an interesting story if you've not seen it yet.

Sometimes I get really down about the world we live in because it seems there are powers who wish to deceive us, attack our children and make us all as unhealthy as possible for profit!  CODEX ALIMENTARIUS for example apparently comes into effect in 5 months which will ban most supplements (well all of those in doses that will be beneficial anyway) and lots of organic farming... corporations like Monsanto wanting to own all the seeds in the world while pushing GMO foods... oh.... the list never ends.

What I would like to do is find a community of like minded families who are into natural immunity, full term breastfeeding, homeschooling and natural living!  I'd be there in a minute!  :0)
mes1971

october

HI Michelle
Please could you update me on the anti vaccine rally as it comes available in terms of when and where, we need to organise busloads!!  Even parents who have children vaccinated should be forewarned that it breaches human rights to make it mandatory.  It is "mandatory" in the states, but there are religious and moral exemptions allowed, but most parents get bullied to death over it.
Thanks
Maryellen
Nature's Mother

Thanks for all the info Michelle...so glad to discover the Vaccine Awareness Network...I too am beginning to feel less alone in this, which is wonderful!

Some articles I found on the swine flu vaccines

http://truth11.wordpress.com/2009...n-to-mandatory-swine-flu-vaccine/

Youtube interview with Jane Burgermeister http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhGoubc2ygg

http://www.naturalnews.com/026503_pandemic_swine_flu_bioterrorism.html

Details on vaccine protest in London:

http://holyhormones.com/vaccinati...ination-to-be-held-at-parliament/

If I can catch a lift with someone, I'm there!!

x
michellejaneholmes

It's incredible isn't it!  What craziness!

Don't get bogged down with the fear though - that is what they want.  When you are in fear you can't think straight.  

When you remain calm and positive everything is clearer and you know how to be in the world!

LOVE LOVE LOVE

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Anne Thomas

Hello Sharon

I know what you mean about not being able to afford homeopathy or herbalism - or any other therapy for that matter.  It's a 2-sided coin really: if they become regulated and integrated into the NHS they would (I assume) be free to all patients; but on the other side there is a very high cost of regulation in natural therapies having to confirm to a system which has completely different principles.

In theory you can now get homeopathy or osteopathy on the NHS, but in practise it's not that easy.  I wonder if either Helen or the resident osteopath (sorry don't have your name in my head at the moment) have managed to get any referrals.  The British Association of Homeopaths has a campaign to promote referrals, but they seem to be closely linked to the Faculty of Homeopaths, which I believe is an organisation consisting of doctors who have trained in homeopathy.  They believe in vaccination.  My vet (or she used to be my vet) offered homeopathy, but she always went for the drugs first and often had to be pushed into offering remedies.

Having said all that, I do strongly feel that if you don't want to use allopathic medicine, it's a good plan to have a back-up in place so that in the event of illness you are not running around being stressed and trying to self-treat, or being drawn back into a system you aren't happy with.  After a roof over your head, and good healthy food, a health system you are happy with has to be a priority I believe.  I often suggest to people to start saving 5-10 per month into a 'health' piggy bank and once you have sufficient get an appointment with either a homeopath or herbalist depending on your preference and who is available locally.  They will often do concessions for family appointments.  Once you have been through an initial set of appointments, you won't necessarily need to see them any more often than you might normally want to see a doctor - ie when something is wrong - or perhaps for an annual review.  If you keep saving your money, you should be able to cover these appointments.  Remedies are usually included in the cost of the consultation and you can then rest easier when there is illness.

Anne
Rina

Hello - I'm new to this...  

This made interesting reading to me.  My husband and I have chosen not to vaccinate our 8 month old baby boy.  I still feel as though I have much to learn about this + at times feel uneasy with the decision because it seems so against the grain of everything we have been taught and brought up knowing + believing.  My hubby felt really strongly about not vaccinating + he no longer takes up vaccinations himself.  We wanted to be united in our decision and so I have read up enough to convince me in my heart that this is the right decision.  So far he is a healthy + happy little boy and I've had no reason to doubt or regret my decision.  We too had a somewhat awkward time with the GP and felt the pressure and the fear.  Its good to know there are others out there making the same choice - it can sometimes feel like a lonely place.  Anyway I'm going to look up your links now.

Thanks.
Nature's Mother

You are full of wisdom Anne, thanks.  I do need to save up and just do it.  

Rina, 18 months in I still have fleeting moments when I feel I should have vaccinated (like when Erin has a raging temp & I convince myself she must have one of the diseases I should have had her vaccinated against).  But this never lasts & it just shows what a good brainwashing & fearmongering we've had!  I'm also just pleased to meet others who have had the same thoughts & feelings as my own, and am always hungry to learn more.  Glad the GP bit is over...now I guess we have to wait for schoolgoing age to explain ourselves again!
Rina

I received another computer generated letter yesterday re. taking my baby for his vaccines.  What do you guys do when you get these - I end up just binning them??  There is nothing on them to suggest there is such a thing as choice it is all presented as 'the norm' thing to do.  Their phrase 'be wise to immunise' just kind of turns that little gulit thing on like you're a terrible parent for doing otherwise.  My heart sinks every time they arrive it all seems so relentless.
Nature's Mother

I've never got them (not sure why) but if I did I would bin them. Stay strong and trust your instincts, mummy!  

I also go through stages of guilt & questioning, but it all comes from a place of fear... I just feel lucky to have met people before Erin was born who made me question the whole process otherwise I daresay I would have given her all her jabs without thinking twice.   The more research I do the more comfortable I become with my choice.  

xxx

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